Marko jokingly says my last post is a bit cranky. I'm not so much cranky as disappointed and unwilling to live with the status quo of youth ministry any longer. (that's why I'm investing my life in what I am) Cranky feels angry, which I was 3-4 years ago. I also want to be clear, that I'm not casting any blame in this post. If you really read the list and let each point soak in a bit, you'll recogonize that to blame one group of people like senior pastors, youth pastors or church leaders would be far to limited in scope. Pointing fingers might be the easiest thing to do, and it certainly is the most natural thing to do, but would be a significant waste of time, emotion and energy.
My friends, things do not have to stay this way. Your frustration and energy would go far more to invest looking at the big picture and then making small simple observations and corrects as we go. (which is easier than it sounds)
My friends, things do not have to stay this way. Your frustration and energy would go far more to invest looking at the big picture and then making small simple observations and corrects as we go. (which is easier than it sounds)
Labels: Riddle Group, Systems Thinking, youth ministry
posted by mark at
4:15 PM
13 Comments:
i appreciate the compliment my friend.
and yes, I may be that kind of angry.
It's funny how I feel like such an outsider to all this. I'm glad. I don't deal with any of the things on your list except for when I talk to friends in church™ and students who see how pointless and void of Christ so much of it is.
I still get angry because of all the lost potential and the hurt it causes those within the system™, but basically I've taken all my toys and found a new game to play. It has its own problems, but nothing like that list. Maybe I'm not proactive enough, but tinkering with the silverware on a sinking ship doesn't seem as important as getting myself and others in the lifeboats. Don't forget that the Church is the people not the system™ itself...abandoning it™ doesn't mean you're abandoning the Church.
So why not let it go if you can?
My guess is that many would if their paychecks and their families' welfare didn't depend on it. Most people in professional ministry just don't feel they have options to do anything else. The only model they've been given for a life of service to Christ and others is a professional career within the current system™. It's a shame we aren't helping more of them escape from being chained to such a narrow view. Maybe we need fewer seminars on how to work or beat the system, and more on how to start new systems or simply see the diversity of what God is doing outside the existing one.
But hang in there guys...you might turn the ship around if you try hard enough!
;-)
the problem with your logic here Jimmy is the system is primarily about people as well. and you are far more connected than you think you are to it. If only because you are in relationship with people (the church if you will) who are still connected to it.
Just for clarity, you can't have people without a system since it is primarily made up of the relationships between people. Of course you could be pretty much alone or have community with a relatively small group of very like minded people... but I'd rather not do that.
;-)
I'm glad you think you are better off than those of us who still choose to connect to the church if it makes you feel better then it must be okay... right?
As a layperson in youth ministry, I certainly don't feel the pressure to keep the status quo for the sake of a paycheck or the welfare of my family. I have to admit that with all the wasted energy I see within church, I am tempted at times to "jump in the lifeboats", but then paddle where? I prefer to stay on the ship, and partner in building a new ship while the old is rusting out. This may not always be the case. There does come a point where it is sink or swim. Mark is absolutely right when he says that you can't have people without a system, whether grassroots and organic, or slick and professional.
I sure wish there was a simple solution to the mess we find ourselves in, but there isn't. Jimmy, I would love to here more about your "new game to play." What system would you propose we replace the current one with?
I remember sitting down at a Cracker Barrel with you and jjack in Mich 3-4 years ago, and I didn't take you as cranky. You did provoke me though...in a good way. We spoke of systems theory and of youth ministry that didn't exclude teens from adults. I took that with me. Thanks.
You are pretty cranky.
thanks mike.
tank.. i'm cranky because you pick up and leave tulsa, but don't say good-bye to me :-)
There's no problem with my logic. I never made any statement about systems in general. I was talking about the particular system that you described in your earlier post. Sure...all systems (relationships) have problems. And it's true I still bump against the system you describe because I have friends within it and I teach at a school that's full of it (in more ways than one). The question is what kind of systems do I subject myself and operate.
The funny thing is that in the system like to make statements about how I'm limiting myself and the community I experience. Yet, I don't feel like my circle of friends and Christian community has lessened in quantity or experience (with the exception of large corporate worship experiences). It isn't like I have lost any friends or anything. I still get to participate actively in the things of Christ...with actually more freedom than I did previously as a staff member. I have elder Christians and younger Christians that regularly share Christ with me. There are opportunities abounding for my family and I to have fellowship with others--the problem is which ones do we have time for on an organized level. Personal missions to those in need is greater than it has ever been. I'm just not sure that I'm missing anything by not subjecting myself to the issues you wrestle with regularly. I've experienced weekly vespers with a monk in training in the Episcopalian tradition, regular urban missions with fundamentalist baptists and far-out charismatics, great conversations weekly with believers from all over the spectrum (rom die-hard church planters to burned out pastors), my family even intentionally eats breakfast with believers from several different churches at a pizza restaraunt on a regular basis--is that somehow "a relatively small group of very like minded people".
And I never said anything negative about you choosing to stay where you are...the issue is that those of you on the ship™ tend to write off those of us who have choosen to, er, jump ship. You evaluate which types of anger are "righteous" and (I assume) "unrighteous". It is portrayed that those that pay lip-service to the system while complaining about it and making lists of things they dislike are somehow healthier than those of us who simply say, "Well, this crap...it's not for me". I'd rather spend my energy building personal relationships with people and doing the things I feel Christ called me to do rather than getting permission from the system™ you describe.
I'll say this again. The Church is not the system™ you describe. My allegiance is to Christ and people. So I pray for and encourage those whom I love within the system, but there is an living expression of the Body outside of the system™. I never said I was "better off" than those who choose to remain, but it has been better for me. For those like me who need it, it would be nice for them to know that without being made to feel guilty (and less healthy) for choosing to do without an unnessary system.
"but then paddle where?"
I could ask the same question of the system you are a part of...where is it going? We've seen the trend in Western culture of the decline in Christendom. I believe it's 10% of Europeans, 20% of Canadians, and 40% of Americans are regularly involved in church and the numbers are in decline. If Francis Schaeffer was right way back in the day, America will just continue to follow the European trend. Yet, the number faithful but un-churched™ Christians is growing.
Here are a few good links:
Andrew Jones' recent post titled "Leaving Church". If you follow all the links within this post you'll get a good feel of what it's like to be outside the system.
Wayne Jacobson at lifestream.org has been writing about this for a while. He is a great guy and very insightful. His article "Why I Don't Go To Church Anymore" was very influential for me after I left the institutional church.
Thanks Jimmy. I am pretty sure you and I are on the same page as far as the fatal flaws with the system. If I sounded like I was dismissing your choice to abandon the system and "find a new game to play," I apologize, for that is not my intention at all. While it may seem that you,(and many of you for that matter), have worked through this shift in your lives, I am still in the midst of mine, so my questioning and wrestling is genuine, and not judgemental. Thank you for the links. To answer your question about where the current system is going, it is my belief that it is,(and has been) rapidly moving into ineffectuality, and ultimately into death. My question is, is it possible to fix it? I don't mean make it what it was, but into what it should be. In a lot of ways, I believe the challenges to be greater in changing the current system than stepping outside of it and creating a new one. My struggle is is it worth it.
joe
I appreciate your words. And I do know what it's like to be where you are...wrestling with everything. And so does Mark. We kind of went through the initial phases of disillusionment with the system together. The great thing is that both options work...I've chosen the option of exiting and Mark is working to change it. The bottom line is that you have to go with your heart and conscience as you discern God's voice in it all.
My heart just hurts for those in ministry who never get to do what God has put on their hearts because of a system that often gets in the way (and even opposes) rather than facilitates. There are tons of other options. They all have their own issues and problems, but the Body is bigger than we think.
I'll say a prayer for you. I'd be interested in knowing where you land in all this in the future.
btw...i really like the stuff over at www.dyingchurch.com too.
And for some humor in the midst, the www.thechurchyouknow.com
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