ReImagine Youth Ministry:.
ETREK conference call with Steve Argue, March 17, 2006
Notes taken by Fred, a volunteer youth worker.

Intro:
Steve is executive director of Contextual Learning Center at Grand Rapids Theological Seminary. Co-founder of Intersect, leadership training and consulting to ministries around the world. Communicator, author, columnist, Group magazine, MDiv from Trinity in Deerfield. Was high school director for Elmwood Church. Co-leader of sonlife for a while.

Riddle:
Traditionally, the objective for youth ministry are to get kids to raise hands or get saved or these kinds of things – come out of a certain understanding of the gospel. Part of re-imagining youth ministry is thinking theologically. What is your understanding of the gospel, how it's changed, and ramifications for youth ministry?

Steve:
Have to respect the past when forging ahead. We need to think hard, push the edge, but be need to be careful not to condemn all that happened in the past – we can't superimpose our thinking on previous eras. They had a need for students to be ministered to in a particular way, with a number of assumptions, like higher degree of literacy regarding the Bible.

There was a desire to explain the gospel (even if reductionistic), but behind it was a beautiful tapestry of Biblical understanding. Trying to convince students that if you know these 3 or 4 things, you will have the gospel. Also, we report to someone who is looking for results, and that unfortunately is expected in numbers, or things like we feel good when we have a quiet time and bad when we don't – we have a weird way of counting things. As a result, we have a gospel we're communicating to a group of people who aren't really getting it. Methods-wise, and theologically, and relationally in the church – we've got problems. We have to remember that first of all we're shepherds and pastors, and it's messy, and if we think it's anything less than that, we're missing it.

As I see Scripture, there aren't , but there's a call to follow Jesus – the promise is there – and the following is what's important. Our understanding of spirituality, we've reduced it to the prayer or raising your hand – and the Spirit may be working there, doing something significant and wonderful, but there's more to it than that. It's more of a process. We've left it in very individualistic way – Jesus came for me, to die for me, so I could go to heaven – very consumeristic. Therefore the thinking goes, I can accept Jesus but reject the church, be disconnected from fellowship. To follow Jesus and submit to his lordship means we are connected with other believers. The fruit of the Spirit is thought of more individualistically rather than communally. We think about gospel individualistically, or tucked youth group away from larger context of church.

In light of all that, the other thing that's happening – we need to look at the gospel in light of the whole story of God. To understand what Jesus has done, need to see He is the pinnacle and vortex of God's large gospel story. Revelation, gospel was spoken to Abraham – something going on where gospel is larger than what we usually think, bigger than a four point reductionistic view. I believe it centers on the kingdom, Hebrews 1, a priestly role established in creation through Adam and Eve, finding its highest completion in Jesus, and from that the priesthood of all believers, in which healing comes about. To come to faith and to come to Jesus means to be part of something God has been doing from the beginning. So the Old Testament is part of my faith history, and I am a redeeming agent, called by God to follow and serve. A very different picture of what gospel is all about – messy, but probably truer.

This is the stuff that keeps me awake at night – I do not want to be somebody that messes the students up, where they miss out on this beautiful thing that the gospel is all about. I want to dive in with them and be part of the journey, and anything we can do to bring it into Technicolor rather than black-and-white, reductionist thing.

Jesus probably asked more questions than he gave answers – pointing to something deeper. You're welcome here with all your questions, doubts, skepticism, and from our working together on understanding, behavior will come out. It's more than "it's this way or no way." Theology isn't fully comprehensible.

Riddle:
What are we calling the youth to commit to or believe in or?

Steve:
We calling them to confession and repentance, to faith in Jesus, but a 14-year-old's understanding of that will be different from a thirty-year-old's. Let me redefine emerging as synonymous with sanctification, growing deeper into God's love and holiness. Show me fruit, passion, a love for God, maturity – I prefer to see those as indicators rather than a one-time commitment (that's pretty limited). Calling people to a decision as the evidence of salvation is as limited as calling people to baptism as the evidence of salvation.


Riddle:
How bridge the gap with the larger church that may not see things this way?

It's important to be bilingual – speak to generation that's come before us, speak to them, and speak to our generation – with grace to all. Possible educate them as well, where opportunities.

"How many kids came to Christ at the youth retreat?" Tell them stories about the kids, give them something to hang onto, to understand how what is going on now connects to their understanding of the gospel.

Need to work within the environment of the church you're in. If in community, there is an element of unity in diversity, and diversity in unity – it's the harder road, but it's the road to community. Asking bigger picture questions, missional questions that include the whole church, and church often doesn't know what to do with that.

Riddle:
If your understanding of the kingdom of God is heaven, then the structure of your program will reflect that. We're good in a lot of churches to get people to make certain kinds of decisions, but the fallout is, if that understanding of the kingdom of God, of salvation, it seems as though missions and those kinds of things are add-ons. What are your ideas and thoughts on what youth ministry looks like when its framework and thinking is more about being a part of the redemptive story and part of the larger community?

Steve:
Our eschatology matters – it shapes what we do now. If all we care about is getting people into heaven, then this is just a waiting room. How we come at salvation will shape how we disciple and minister. Salvation is more than a free gift – it will also cost you everything. Those expressions come through in the way that we live. A lot of times we don't give reasons for why we do what we do, more a sense of behavior modification. If we get them to do or not do certain things, then we're all right – the test of maturity. Rather, need to say Christian life is one of constant dependence, we need to hear his voice. We serve at local food kitchen because God loves those people and wants us to connect to them. We need to experience the idea of community, of being the church in a real and relational fashion, not optional. Youth ministry built around spiritual disciplines of vulnerability, prayer, social justice – springboard from our identity rather than forming our identity. Have to be interconnected with ministry and larger values of the church – provides anchors in our activities that go deeper. Keeps students connected with church, rather than just seeking next youth group. Alan Jamison's book, people aren't coming back to the church – why is there less connection with the church? Maybe it's hollow programming with no anchor to the community. Need to constantly think about what that looks like in our community and ministry.

Riddle:
What is role of youth pastor and how that's changed. What is your relationship with Dave Livermore, and how you live out the gospel?

Dave and I met years ago, got connected, were wrestling with a lot of these issues, most ministry seemed pragmatic rather than theologically driven. Friendship developed, worked together in Illinois, exciting but bumpy road, and when that job ended we had to decide where our relationship would go – separate? Or does ministry come out of relationship? Tired of living life in segments, keeping all the plates spinning. What does it look like to have friends be comrades in ministry? Conversations interwoven with hearts an dreams. Friendships are too important to just let go. What would it look like to do ministry out of our friendship? We moved to Grand Rapids with a dream to start Intersect, Dave was offered job at seminary, I wasn't at the time, just moved out there with Dave. Met Mark Riddle there, now on staff with seminary. Feel like lives overlap in friendship and ministry, do team training rather than individual – it's a value to us. Learning in ministry is learning in community. Walk together through hard things, feels earthy, real, doesn't feel like theory any more. Marking the church calendar – it's the telling and re-telling of the story of God, of creation-fall-redemption all over again. Changes the way we connect to and serve the church. We're vulnerable to each other, have to decide in community what we do – a liberating thing in many ways. How do we value our time together, investing in the things God wants us to invest in?

Etrek Participant:
What examples in recent days, show this?

Steve:
We have decisions about the summer, Dave has a going overseas opportunity but there is a big thing going on in Grand Rapids this summer, and book writing – still wrestling with what to do here. Another thing – all three of them are holding me accountable to get my PhD, and I have to get my application in very soon. Another thing, more ongoing, house church, a hard group of people, marriage problems, another going through divorce – and sometimes we feel we just want to bail, but have chosen to stick this out, even in midst of tensions in our working it out – how do we lead this together, where need to confess we're not loving the people God has given us? We consistently get together and pray for our kids. The cool thing that's happening with our girls – they'll call Linda and tell her, unsolicited, what's going on in their lives – see their friendship as more like sisters rather than two separate families. A more relational connect that seconds the motion on how we're living out the gospel. Dave and I try to write together, too, which not everybody can do, but it seems to work for us.

Etrek Participant:
Earlier you were talking about youth ministry – it springs out of our identity, and is interconnected – flesh that out for us.


Steve:
Before we flesh out the structure, we need to ask what are the competencies, the growth edges we want to see in our students as we shepherd them – then the programs serve that. The other thing, interconnectedness needs to be internally with youth ministry – what will we do in the summer with them, is there interconnectedness and reason behind those choices? How to they connect with parents, and with values of the church? How is our youth ministry different from the volleyball team or drama team or musical coming up? If we're a redemptive community that chooses to think about and talk about things that others don't, then that's what we'll do. They don't need me to figure out for them how they can have fun. We almost use kids to fill up our legitimacy, to whoever we want to be legitimate toward, and that is dangerous ground. We have infused parachurch ideas into church ministry, and that's often irrespective of the church identity – we need to think about ministry in very pastoral ways.

Etrek Participant:
Discussion about youth ministry not fitting into whole church context, intergenerationally – discuss that.

Steve:
If we forget about thinking of youth ministry as part of the church, youth ministry will never go away, because youth are a people group, and some of us are called to work with them. We need people to think about this culture and how we communicate the gospel, and what is good news to them. Often missions, like youth ministry, is separate from the rest of the church, and it shouldn't be that way. We're committed to them, and will send people to serve and love them. Then youth ministry isn't a satellite from the church, but part of the core. The seventy-year-old minister has as much to learn from the gospel as the twelve-year-old. Being intergenerational is more than lumping everyone together. We become incarnational.

Etrek Participant:
Practically, what does that look like? Kids are willing to accept that they have something to offer – but how get adults to understand that as well?

Steve:
The issue is often power – those who are in power like it, they pay the bills, and that's not going to necessarily change. Need a great relationship with the senior pastor, and that this isn't a segmented ministry but is to be integrated with the church – not separate. Incorporate leaders into ministry who aren't just college kids. It's a hard journey because people don't like change, and they don't like their cages rattled. We expect teens to do things we don't expect about ourselves. When do we say to adults, go and pray about opportunity to talk with your boss about Jesus? There's a broader range of application that pushes adults as much as students. Needs to be reflected in the budget for youth ministry, should have as much weight as missions budget – financial investment usually increase personal investment as well.

We struggled with kids coming to youth group and call Sunday morning big church, which was not needed – but kids need worship experience with message that touches them where they're at. We took them out for 3 weeks a month, then once a month bring back in, and ask the powers that be to incorporate things to include that audience – shows kids they're part of it, tells adults you can't do church without incorporating them, using their gifts, exercising gifts to bless each other.

Church also suffers from identity crisis – Robert Webber, pictures in Scripture about fellowship of faith, body of Christ, descriptions give us better idea of what it means to live together in a faith community. Need a senior pastor to beat that drum with you, otherwise it looks like nothing more than a special interest thing by the youth pastor. Do things together with multiple generations. We often don't do things together because we stereotype each other (and it goes both ways).

Riddle:
The conversation about re-imagining youth ministry, rethinking so many things – then we often hit a wall that we can't change the rest of the church yet, or that we're in this kind of church, and we feel that there's this ideal we have, and need to connect it to the reality of the church context we're in.We try to reform from within.

Steve:
When Martin Luther pounded the theises on the wall, he was still Catholic. May need to decide that the chruch we're in – we don't need to be there. Tough decision. The tension is that youth ministry has become a respectable position, with benefits and perks. Need to stay away from that, go toward churches that are thinking intergenerationally, missionally – not a decision you make alone, need others eyes to help decide. It can be hard work, and need people who aren't too quick to bail, but aren't afraid to call it what it is and not perpetuate the dysfunction – and those are fightin' words.

The hope was the first generation of youth pastors would become senior pastors, and they'd understand that – but it often hasn't happened.

What do you guys think about emergent – a happy word, an evil word, what?

It needs to be more than just another niche market. Need to ask what it means to be emergent theologically more than stylistically. Emergent is creating its own ethos, becoming almost its own special interest group. For some, it may be little more than a bunch of academic white guys all over again – need to push toward reconciliation.

Riddle:
Tell us what Intersect is.

Steve:
A small, growing ministry, bridge between how-to seminar and seminary. The type of training we offer has a strong theological ethos to it, with practical applications. Learning in ministry, learning in community. Youth can come, if come with youth leader – don't want them to become Intersect-dependent. Training is being done nationally and internationally (singapore, india, africa). No goals for that, going where we're invited. Work with national leader, believe all education has to be nationalized, and they are the best for doing that, show them the material and work with them to serve the context we're ministering to (more than, here's the package, take it or leave it).